Humungeous Hornets Nest

Anyone who has driven into Preuilly from the Loches direction or who reads our friend Gaynor's blog will have noticed that there is a humungeous Yellow-legged Asian Hornet Vespa velutina nigrithorax (Fr. le Frelon asiatique à pattes jaunes) nest in a tree close to the road just as you enter Preuilly. The nest is clearly very active (you can see hornets crawling all over it), and since this species is an invasive alien, you are obliged to report nests to the authorities. 

I figured someone would already have done so, but I emailed the mairie (town hall) anyway. I wanted to know how long it would take them to respond and what they would do (ie how seriously they would treat it).

A couple of days later our friend Dominique Robin, who is on the council, emailed me to say that the mairie already knew about the nest, the landowner had been tracked down and notified that it is his responsibility to deal with the nest.

So now it's a matter of waiting to see how quickly the landowner takes to get the nest treated and removed. What I am slightly worried about is that he will attempt a 'home treatment' rather than one of the approved professional pest controllers.  Hopefully it will be treated at dusk or early morning before the hornets have left home for a day of foraging, and the treated nest will be cut down and burned so there is no chance for birds to eat the poisoned grubs inside the nest.

 The nest will have been there all summer, but has only just become visible because the leaves have dropped from the tree. This is typical of how Asian Hornet nests are discovered. They are amazingly difficult to see until autumn.

By the time we had finished taking photos dusk was falling on a late October day.

A week later, this hornet and some of her mates were encountered feeding on ivy flowers. The nest is in a tree just the other side of a small valley to the ivy, so this hornet almost certainly came from there.

As of yesterday the nest is still there.

Update 27 November 2014: The nest features in an article in the local paper. Here's my translation:

Strange spheres have appeared in the trees and hedges of our region, posing some problems for the locals. Such is the case with a nest of Asian Hornets perched in the branches of a tree as you enter Preuilly sur Claise.

The destruction of these nuisances used to come under the responsibilities of the fire brigade. The current legislation envisages that these days the intervention is left to private companies and the fees are the responsibility of the land owner. The Asian Hornet is dangerous to man because of its sting, but is also one of the principle predators of honey bees. The disappearance of bees is a particularly worrying phenomenon. Not only is the apiculture sector significantly reducing, but bees are the principle pollinators of crops and wild flowers.  Without these precious insects a large part of the vegetation would no longer exist. Einstein said that if the bees disappear the human race would last no longer than four years. [This is utter rubbish, both in terms of attribution of the quote and the actual facts.] According to beekeepers the principle causes of their disappearance is sickness (brought by varroa mites and foulbrood), pesticides, monocultures and for some years now, the infamous Asian Hornet.

With this fourth factor, a problem arises when the land owners don't take up their responsibility, either through negligence or lack of resources. Many people are wondering whether the management of a plague of this magnitude should not be the responsibility of local or regional authorities, or even the national government.

For an alternative view on how much of a threat (or not...) they may be, Chris Luck has written an interesting blog post based on his recent experience of discovering an Asian Hornet's nest in his apiary. He's a beekeeper of many years standing as well as a very fine naturalist, who lives just the other side of the Brenne to us.

Faking Flint Flakes

The other day we were standing around in the garden of some friends and we noticed a pile of flint flakes. We didn't think they had just unearthed a hitherto unknown flint working site, although that is just what it looked like. I thought they must have accidently hit or dropped a flint nodule that was just lying around in the garden and it had shattered.

The real story was somewhat more interesting than just an accident though. They explained that last time local archaeologist and expert flint knapper Bertrand Walter had been giving a demonstration the heavens had opened and the demostration was hastily abandoned in a rush to get indoors. Our friends knew that Bertrand is very careful to clear away any trace of his demonstrations after they are concluded. So once the rain stopped they went in to the museum grounds and picked up all the pieces, removing them to their garden.

The reason Bertrand is so meticulous about clearing up is mainly because he is worried that unscrupulous people will pass the flint off as genuine prehistoric pieces, but also because flint shards are sharp and could injure someone.

Would You Eat These Mushrooms?

 Mushrooms on the table after a fungi foray waiting to be identified.

A basket of boletes.

The mushrooms in the basket are all edible. They belong to a group called boletes, of which the ceps are the best known and most prized. They grow in forests. There several species in the basket, mostly Orange Oak Bolete Leccinum aurantiacum, but also a few Bay-brown Bolete Boletus badius and Red-footed Bolete Boletus luridiformus. The person who picked them was only collecting for the table and has not touched anything they did not know to be edible. Boletes are the best beginners mushrooms here because they are safe -- none are lethal and the couple that will give you a stomach ache are unappetising looking (coloured or staining luridly) and/or bitter to taste. It's fairly difficult to poison yourself with a bolete. Boletes are distinctive and easy to recognise too. They are fat stemmed, nubuck capped, with thick spongey pores, not gills, underneath.

If you are picking mushrooms in the forest, make sure you do it by gently extracting the entire mushroom, root and all. This leaves the mycelia undisturbed and able to produce more fruiting bodies like the mushroom you have just picked. Don't use a rake to gather mushrooms as this will totally destroy the mycelia, and don't pick mushrooms by cutting through the stem with a knife. That leaves a wound which is vulnerable to bacterial attack, which will also kill the mycelia. Don't gather mushrooms from the side of the road or industrial sites either as they are known bio-accumulators, taking up heavy metals and radio-active substances.

The quantity here is obviously more than a nice omelette's worth, but never fear -- they freeze and dry well. To prepare them brush off all the dirt and bits of forest floor. Cut the bottom off the stem, then cut the mushroom in half. This allows you to assess how much fly larval activity there is inside. If you are lucky there will be none. In bad cases you may want to discard the mushroom. Otherwise, simply cut out the affected sections. You may also wish to peel off the spongey pores as they hold a lot of water and can interfere with cooking the mushroom. Slice the mushroom, including as much of the stem as you wish.

Boletes I picked in the Forest of Preuilly.
We ate them.

To freeze them my friend Paul advises preparing as above, then chopping the mushroom up. Spread out on paper towel and leave overnight, then freeze. Cook from frozen.

To dry them, slice them and lay on an oven rack at a low temperature overnight, perhaps with the door propped open slightly. Some species will go black, which makes them unappetising looking, but does not affect their flavour. Make sure they are completely dry or they will not store well.

To fry them from fresh Paul says that best practice is to cook them until they release their water, then drain the liquid before continuing to cook the mushrooms.

Boletes waiting to be identified after an outing in the Forest of Loches.

All of the mushrooms in the photo above are boletes too, but they have not been collected with the same aim in mind as the ones in the basket. These have been collected along with every other species of mushroom we could find in the forest. They've shared baskets with deadly poisonous species and with halucinogenic species. No one will be eating these mushrooms. They have been assembled simply to provide a learning opportunity. They will all be expertly identified and learners can discuss them and practice their identification skills in the presence of expert mentors. Then they are thrown away -- to prevent the possibility of an accident where pieces of toxic mushrooms get mixed in with the boletes someone eats.

Cornflowers for Remembrance

The cornflower memorial near Les Invalides, Paris.

The First World War was an historic watershed, in terms of its violence, duration and international nature. It marked the end of an era.

The end of the Great War in 1918 left a legacy of more than 20 million wounded and invalided, some severely disabled, who could no longer work. In addition, in the immediate aftermath of the war, all the effort was directed toward reconstruction, whether that be economic, human or infrastructure, and separate to programmes put in place by the State, private co-operative initiatives and associations of all sorts were born.

It was in this context that the Bleuet de France (Cornflower of France) saw the light of day.

The story of the creation of the Bleuet de France begins, having come out of the First World War, at the Institution Nationale des Invalides (the national military hospital and nursing home in central Paris). At its heart are two women of the time, listening to the suffering of their contemporaries: Charlotte Malleterre (daughter of the Commandant of the Hôtel National des Invalides) and Suzanne Leenhardt, both nurses at the Institution, who wished to help the disabled of the First World War. From 1925 they created a workshop for the pensioners of Les Invalides in which they made cornflowers from fabric in order to give them back some sort of normal life and partly support their needs by the sale of the flowers.

The wild cornflower was chosen as the national symbol of remembrance, but why? Several hypotheses exist.

• as a memory of the trenches, where new recruits would arrive in their blue uniforms and were dubbed bleuets by the older poilus (beardies).
• the wild cornflower, in the chaos wrought by man, despite the horror of the trenches, continued to grow on the field of battle.
• in hommage to the blue, the colour of the nation, the first colour on the tricolor flag.

Soon the initiative developed and became nationwide. People wanted to express their recognition  and come to the aid of these men who sacrificed their youth to defend France. That's why it was decided for 11 November 1934, for the first time, to sell the flowers made by the veterans, on the public street in the capital. 128 000 flowers were sold. It was a real success and followed by the State making the sale of cornflowers throughout France on 11 November official in 1935. After the Second World War, in 1957, the State created a second collection day on 8 May.

Then in 1991 the National Veterans and Victims of War Office decided to take on the administration of the work, which had been declining for some years. From a workshop making flowers a charity supporting veterans and victims of war has come through the 20th century with its goals intact and active.

Today, at the beginning of a new century, the work of the Bleuet de France continues on new fronts,  promoting alongside traditional social actions the transmission of memory as a real vector of solidarity between generations. 

For those of you who want to read all that in French, here it is. 

A poster calling for volunteers to help maintain and care for the graves of French soldiers in France and overseas, especially those which no longer have family to care for them. Le Souvenir Français is an organisation dedicated to maintaining the memory of those who have died for France. 

What is the Name of This Street?

We have blogged about this little dead end before.

However, I was looking at the cadastral map for Preuilly, and noticed there was punctuation shown on the maps on the new cadastre37 website run by the conseil générale of Indre et Loire.

When I came to writing this blog post I went to the French national government cadastral maps in error - and noticed that the punctuation is different.

 So - what IS the lane called?

Simon

Henbury Craters

 The Henbury Craters, 145 km south of Alice Springs, were formed by a meteorite impact about 4-5 thousand years ago. Several tonnes of iron-nickel fragments have been fossicked from the site. The largest of the dozen or so craters is 180 m across. The first person to study them was Arthur Alderman, a geology lecturer at Adelaide University. You can read his 1931 report here.

Exoprosopa sp

This Exoprosopa sp is one of a genus of generally large dark bee flies that occur worldwide. This one appeared to be common in outback Australia. They are related to Anthrax anthrax which we get here in the Touraine Loire Valley.

 

The Snail Farmer

 Petit-gris snail shell at back left with gros-gris shell next to it. The others are Roman snail shells.

Grégory Roy is a snail farmer (Fr. héliciculteur). His business, called L'Escargolette, is fully vertically integrated, as modern farmers like to say. That is, he controls the whole process from breeding and raising the snails to preparing them, marketing and selling them. The farm, near Ligueil, covers 300 m² (that's the size of our vegetable garden) and he has 80 000 head. He uses the words tête (head) and bêtes (beasts) just as any anglo grazier would.

Grég with a tray of snails in croustilles (edible shells made from flour paste baked in a special snail shell shaped mould).

 He has a nursery (he uses the English word) where he raises baby snails called naissains in French. They are tiny to begin with, only a few millimetres across and weighing half a gram. They are also delicate and very susceptible to overheating. He has to make sure to open up their greenhouse to ventilate it early in the morning before the sun hits it, or they cook and his whole next generation of stock is killed. He raises native petit-gris and gros-gris snails (Garden Snails) rather than the more usual escargots de Bourgogne (Roman Snails). The much larger Roman Snails make up 80% of the industry, but he prefers the flavour and texture of the smaller Garden Snails. The smaller snails also have the advantage that they are quicker to mature to consumable size. Garden Snails take about 4-6 years, whereas Roman Snails take 7 years. Customers can buy naissains or live fully grown snails if they have a yen to be a bit more hands on.

Toastines d'escargots on the left, escargots au court bouillon on the right.

 Once the snails are ready they are transformed into various traditional dishes -- Escargots farcis (snails in shells with parsley butter) €6.20/dozen; Escargots au court bouillon (jars of 4 dozen snails in bouillon) €16; Chairs d'escargots blanchies (purged snails without shells in bulk packs for restaurants); Toastine d'escargots (snails cooked in wine and parsley butter spread for toast) €6.80 a jar.

Escargot farcis.

 Grég didn't leave school with a burning ambition to become a snail farmer. He qualified as a plumber specialising in heating systems, but after a time wanted to get involved in agriculture as a sideline just because he was interested. He met a snail farmer, and initially he thought the idea of snail farming was a joke, but he slowly got more and more intrigued by the creatures themselves. He likes the problem solving aspect of snail farming. For example, snails have numerous predators, particularly birds and certain carnivorous mammals. Dealing with the birds was easy -- he just erected nets. But what to do about small mammals? His solution is ingenious to say the least. The farm has a perimeter track, which is patrolled by guinea pigs. The scent of these tame and strictly vegetarian rodents keeps away shrews and hedgehogs.

The snails get to eat about 30 different vegetable, forage and grass species, all grown on site without pesticides. In the mix are plants like Jerusalem artichoke, agricultural rape, clover, lucerne, rye and sunflower, to which Grég adds a supplement of powdered legumes. It's important to him to follow the traditional methods of raising snails, respect the soil, find locally sustainable ways of working and focus on the quality of the lifestyle and the product.

If you want to try snails, but are a bit hesitant, I suggest trying the toastine. It's a very tasty buttery garlicky parsley flavoured spread on a bit of crunchy toast. And if anyone can convince you to try some it's Grég. He's like many of these young men I see around here who are living and working their dream -- totally dedicated to making a success of his business, producing the best snails he can, educating the public about the product and spreading the word about how delicious they are. If you go to the farmers markets in the Touraine du Sud you will quite likely encounter Grég and his snails. I would have linked to his website, but he claims to be a paysan (peasant) living in the middle of nowhere, so he doesn't have good internet connection and doesn't use email or a website. These photos were taken at the annual autumn market held in the farmyard of Maison Perrin, a foie gras and fat duck producer whose farm is located between la Celle Guenand and le Grand Pressigny.

I first met Grég several years ago at an informal meeting of organic producers which we blogged about at the time.

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A la cuisine hier: Curry Goat, with bits of goat that have been marinating in a spicy rub for a couple of days. After frying the goat pieces I added onions, then garlic, a can of tomatoes, some water, coconut milk and lime juice. Then it got two hours of slow cooking on the wood stove. Jamaican food is not for the faint hearted. Not because it is spicy hot necessarily, but because it is rich -- if it isn't deep fried it is dosed with coconut milk. The curry will have potatoes added today and cook for another hour and be served with rice'n'peas (more coconut milk...).

Muesli, a simple matter of combining two packets of mixed rolled cereals (wheat, oats, barley and rye), a packet of sultanas, one of sunflower seeds and a cup of linseeds. Two cups of unbleached almonds were toasted and added, and a packet of the leatheriest dried apricots I could find, cutting each apricot into three. No added sugar or fat. No spices or chocolate.

Custard, made by heating a pint of milk containing a split vanilla pod and letting it infuse. Vanilla needs heat and time to give its flavour up. Meanwhile, four egg yolks are combined with three tablespoons of sugar and a teaspoon of cornstarch (cornflour). Reheat the milk to near boiling and pour it into the egg mixture, stirring all the while. Put back on the heat and stir until thickened, being careful not to let it boil. Strain into a jug to get rid of any stray bits of milk skin and coagulated egg white. If you use vanilla extract you can just chuck everything in together and heat from cold, stirring all the time. Last night's custard was served with stewed cherry plums from the freezer.

Bucrania

Those of you familiar with Loches and Poitiers, amongst others, have probably noticed Renaissance era buildings with ornate friezes decorated with, of all things, beautifully carved ox skulls. Why would anyone put such a macabre motif in prime position right on the front of their expensive and luxurious house you probably wondered...Well, I did anyway, so I looked it up, and this is what I discovered:

 Bucrania on a building in Poitiers (now a private health insurance agency).

The answer is to be found in the way European culture looked back on Roman times as the good old days. Roman motifs and symbolic references to Rome appear everywhere throughout the post Roman period.

La Chancellerie in Loches, with both ox skulls and ox heads. The bucrania on this building are not as fine as the ones in Poitiers that I photographed.

Bucrania, as these ox skulls are technically termed, are just one manifestation of this nostalgia for an illustrious past. The ox skulls are generally depicted draped in garlands of fruit, flowers or tassels and probably come from the Roman habit of dressing a sacrifical ox then displaying their heads on the temple walls after the ceremony.

Ox head, Loches.

They are part of a suite of classical architectural elements used by wealthy 16th century French aristocrats and bourgeoisie to indicate how cultured and educated they were.

Ox skull, Loches.

Ox skull, Poitiers.

Au jardin hier: It's got to the stage in the season where a frost could catch me out, so I went down to the potager and lifted some Jerusalem artichokes (we have a nice smooth white variety that doesn't need peeling, which I will roast), beetroot (half a dozen little beauties), celeriac (two softball sized roots, which I will roast) and celery (short and stringy, but good flavour so will make good stock). I also picked a zucchini, chard (silver beet) and some chives and gathered some pine cones for the fire. The ground is now quite wet and sticky. I only took a hand fork down, not realising that celery and celeriac have enormous and vigorous root systems. It's the first year I've produced edible celery or celeriac and it must be due to the cool damp summer I think. 

Dining at The Ivy

A female Urban Bluebottle Blowfly Calliphora vicina sips nectar from ivy flowers.

At this time of year the Ivy Hedera helix is flowering and is clearly very attractive to many insects, particularly flies. Although ivy produces both nectar and pollen, it is the nectar that most are after. Only the Ivy Bee Colletes hederae seems to be particularly interested in the pollen. Other bees and wasps will use both, but the day I photographed the ivy at the orchard there were only a couple of parasitc wasps in view, and at least 16 species of fly, from 6 families. This is not surprising as studies show that flies make up over 50% of the visitors to ivy.

A male Stomorhina lunata slurps away on the ivy.

Only mature ivy flowers. It is identifiable because its leaves are plain rather than the five lobed type we prize in the garden. It flowers for the whole of the autumn, much later than most other nectar sources, and the flowers will top up their nectar once it has been tapped by an insect, so it is like a bottomless cup.

A female Tapered Drone Fly Eristalis pertinax (top) is joined by a male Marmalade Hover Fly (bottom) Episyrphus balteatus.

 Honey Bees Apis mellifera will happily forage on ivy, but about half the 'honey bees' you will see on the ivy will be hover fly mimics from the genus Eristalis.

A female Glass-winged Syrphus hover fly Syrphus vitripennis.

A female Graphomya maculata (centre right) is joined by a female Stomorhina lunata (lower left) and a parasitic fly Tachinidae (upper right).

A Noon Fly Mesembrina meridiana (left) and a male Stomorhina lunata (right) at lower left; a Sepsis sp (left) and a greenbottle Lucilia sp (right) at upper centre.

A group of drone flies, greenbottles and a parasitic fly.

The Striped Hover Fly Helophilus pendulus.

A Noon Fly.

Upper left, a Noon Fly and a parasitic fly, below them an Urban Bluebottle Blowfly and to the right a couple of drone flies.

The parasitic fly Pales pavida, with a gnat that maybe a minute black scavenger fly Scatopsidae, lower left.

Eglise Saint Porchaire, Poitiers

Saint Porchaire was a 7th century abbot who was buried near where the church now stands. His tomb became a place of pilgrimage. In the late 9th century, during the period of the Norman raids, his remains were gathered together and placed in a stone sarcophagus which was stored in an underground sanctuary on the site of the church. The remains of this sanctuary form the foundations for the current tower and crypt.

The interior.

The current church has an 11th century clocher-porche, that is, one enters the church via a porch under the bell tower which rises from the front. The bell itself, called Anne, came from the university and was installed in 1431. It is the oldest bell in the département of Vienne and is joined by two later bells, from 1771 and 1803. All three bells were restored in the 19th century by Amédée Bollée. Inside, the church is a double nave, in the Gothic style. The stained glass is 20th century.

A gravestone from the cemetery which once occupied the land on the south side of the church.
It is the from the 16th century and commemorates an alderman who commissioned a covered fish market in the town (hence the fish emblems).

By the end of the 15th century the church was virtually in ruins, so in February of 1509 work on a new church began, to be finished in 1520. By 1840 the church was once again in ruins and the local authority decided to demolish it. Prosper Merimée and his band of crusading antiquarians got wind of this and launched a three year campaign to save the building, and  by 1846 it was heritage listed.

 I would have thought that the temptation to ring a 15th century bell would be too much for many a visitor, but there appears to be nothing to stop you doing so if you are overcome by the urge...

In 2011-12 the clocher-porche was entirely restored, including completely removing, repairing and reinstating the internal spiral staircase, as well as cleaning the exterior.

The clocher-porche (belltower-porch).

For much of its life the church has been an ordinary parish church. Earlier this year the parishioners were saddened to lose their high profile and energetic priest, Father Gourrier. He received his calling relatively late in life, becoming a priest at the age of 40 in 2000, after having been the head of a Paris publishing company. He's a regular on the Radio Monte Carlo show Les Grandes Gueules (The Loudmouths), a daily 3 hour (!) current affairs talk show (a bit like BBC Radio 4's The Moral Maze). The programme regularly courts controversy and lively exchanges are common (personally I don't listen to the programme as it is too shouty, especially when Claire O'Petit is on).

Saint Porchaire's rather mini sarcophagus and his statue above.

Father Gourrier is a trained psychologist too, and after a sudden and serious illness 18 months ago has now been tasked by his archbishop with counselling and mentoring trainee priests in Poitiers. The parish is being merged with another, and Father Gourrier is looking forward to 'fewer meetings, more meditation'.

This rather random group of carvings appealed to me. From left to right it appears to be a lemur (maybe a monkey or a squirrel -- who knows...); two men whispering in the ears of a rather bored looking young woman; a king; a Celtic motif; a woman swinging a tennis racket/frying pan/banjo (take your pick...); a crocodile; a knight.

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Fungi Exhibition: The Association de Botanique et de Mycologie de Sainte Maure de Touraine has organised an exhibition of fungi gathered from the local area. It will be in the east wing of the Halles (market halls) in Sainte Maure de Touraine on Saturday 8 November from 2 pm to 6.30 pm and Sunday 9 November from 10 am to 12 pm and 2 pm to 6 pm.

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Dental Drama: Sunday night Simon developed an agonising toothache in a tooth that broke about 6 weeks ago. So yesterday I phoned for an appointment with the dentist. The earliest appointment they could offer was on Thursday, but they promised to ring us if something earlier became available. Luckily they rang at lunchtime to say he could come in at 3 o'clock, and he spent an hour in the dentist's chair having emergency root canal work done. I sat in to do any necessary translating and it did not look pleasant. He has very deep roots and the dentist has made him four more appointments to finish the work and give him a crown. The appointment, which included two x-rays, anaesthetic and lots of poking and excavating, cost us €23. He's given us a quote for the crown -- €280 for a metal crown, €445 for a ceramic one. He says there's no advantage of the ceramic one other than aesthetic. The State health care base charge for a crown is €107.50 no matter which sort you get, so our reimbursement is the same whichever crown Simon chooses. I think we'll get about €50 back on the crown.

The Medieval Month of November

The month of November, a wall painting from a 12th century series of months of the year decorating an arch in the church of  Lignières en Touraine. November is characterised by going out to hunt wild boar with bow and arrow.

November, especially the first half, is often wet, and always grey. Normally it is wet and grey in the first half, cold and grey in the second half. Statistically it is the wettest month of the year, with heavy rain falling. Sunrise 8:00, sunset 17.00. Average maximum temperature is about 15°, but we can expect under 100 hours of sunlight.

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Tours Station Ceramic Panels: The crowd-funding campaign has hit its target and gone over. Hurrah! The excess over the target will go towards the second panel. You can still donate if you wish, as the link will remain open until mid-November. If you understand French have a look at the video on the crowd-funding site too. It's a nice overview of the panels and their history, with a tantalising glimpse of some conservators doing some rescue repairs on one.

Silhouettes in the Sun

The shadows of my family on a walkway make silhouettes at Kings Canyon in 2006.
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What the French Know About France: Ipsos Australia has just released a report called 'The Perils of Perception'. It's a study of what people know about their country. The study covers 14 countries, including France, Australia, Britain, USA, Sweden, Belgium and Canada. It makes very interesting reading. Click on the link to see the report. The questionnaire that people answered to supply the data which the report is based on is also available. I strongly suggest you do the questionnaire first, then look at the report.

Spinifex

The grass in this picture is Spinifex Triodia sp. The tips of the leaves are like cactus spines and you really don't want to have to walk through a patch. It is a plant of the arid interior of Australia and is endemic to this area.
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A la cuisine hier: A chickpea based dip that wasn't hummus. I kind of followed this recipe and added onion (aka nigella) seeds.

Roasted crumbed pork fillet with mustard cream sauce. I marinated the pork in a 2:1 mixture of yoghurt:milk because I didn't have any buttermilk. It was really, really good.